tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post4821204302245241383..comments2024-03-19T21:14:01.007-07:00Comments on The Compass Rose: Dover Beach 100 Years LaterCurtis Favillehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-60758995651102894232010-06-18T12:13:55.793-07:002010-06-18T12:13:55.793-07:00curtis:
that. is. exactly.
"what-it-is"...curtis:<br />that. is. exactly. <br />"what-it-is"<br /><br />however<br /><br />I wasn't "meaning"<br />I was merely "being".<br /><br />I, too, frequently have difficulty<br />following/understanding myself<br /><br />like the time I was on an oil rig and lit a match to see<br />if<br />there "REallly" was odorless NATURAL gas leaking into the air...<br /><br />well, I certainly found out what THAT meant!<br /><br />it ; the result, REALLY WAS a cliche! and it s concomitant "meaning" was not<br />your run-of-the-mill metaphor.Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-71055022402229038172010-06-18T10:43:44.475-07:002010-06-18T10:43:44.475-07:00Ed:
Not sure I follow your line of argument here....Ed:<br /><br />Not sure I follow your line of argument here.<br /><br />Do you mean that writers can't be held "responsible" for their audience, or its limitations? <br /><br />I think Bee's reaction to Arnold's poem is perfectly fine, but perhaps it says more about the reader than the writer. Writers might often be surprised at just what subsequent generations of readers may think about their work. I think in the case of Arnold's poem, the sentiment does survive whatever limitations existed in his Victorian milieu. That's a measure of its success.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-54519336232433391272010-06-18T10:23:26.218-07:002010-06-18T10:23:26.218-07:00as an author
a poet and an artist
who is NOT in...as an author <br />a poet and an artist<br /><br />who is NOT interviewing for or applying for or<br />building towards a long list of credentials<br /> I can tell you:<br /><br />I, nor any other writer/artist, am/is not <br />responsible for the readers'/viewers' intelligence OR<br />understanding<br /><br />as Al Ginsberg once told me: " I write for those who 'dig it'."Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-4620397212758508872010-06-18T10:09:25.452-07:002010-06-18T10:09:25.452-07:00How we respond to the level of conviction in any p...How we respond to the level of conviction in any piece of writing, is a measure of how effective the author has been in convincing us through the rhetorical devices he uses. That makes it sound as if writing is all about strategy and cunning and artificial feeling--but that's not at all what I'm getting at. <br /><br />I think Arnold's poem is enormously effective. And there is nothing in my post which would suggest that I regard his poem as less than an impressive achievement. My purpose in placing the two poems (and poets) in opposition was to point out their relationship, and the changing impulses and attitudes over time.<br /><br />I think you may be deliberately misinterpreting Arnold's poem. I don't see it as an example of a desperate outcry from the depths of depression, as you seem to ("the bottom"). Instead, I read it as a formal overture to passionate engagement, in which a man is justifying this passion with appeals to higher ideals, against the backdrop of a kind of historical cynicism. Its relaxed tone--"relaxed" in the context of its time (it sounds a bit unruffled and formal to our ears)--creates the aura of honest conviction, whereas I suspect Arnold was more concerned with creating the EFFECT of conviction, than of actually communicating the sentiment to a real OTHER.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-61223249836127646842010-06-18T10:06:32.512-07:002010-06-18T10:06:32.512-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-9649486736336143182010-06-08T19:47:31.624-07:002010-06-08T19:47:31.624-07:00Curtis, to any one who has been to the bottom, th...Curtis, to any one who has been to the bottom, the final stanza of Dover Beach is completely recognizeable. It is written from there. If one is looking at it in an effete bourgeois way, one can poke all sorts of fun, and holes in it. But anyone who has been to the bottom will recognize the steel there.<br />The final shoe dropping.<br />And those when they hear your snobbish comments, will have precisely the same reaction to you as you have to the author!! Dare you to print this. Don't imagine you will. Signed, been there, done that. Be well, mean you well. love Bee.Beenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-80048003175742402982010-04-06T07:06:13.017-07:002010-04-06T07:06:13.017-07:00No need. I've reconsidered and you're prob...No need. I've reconsidered and you're probably right. It's more of a response than a parody. Silly of me, should have thought twice.<br /><br />I still think you were wrong to speak of cliches but it's not worth arguing about. <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />MarkMark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-13519333246767252412010-04-05T16:01:38.026-07:002010-04-05T16:01:38.026-07:00Mark:
Ask yourself one thing: Is Hecht's poem...Mark:<br /><br />Ask yourself one thing: Is Hecht's poem an imitation--in any sense--of Arnold's poem? <br /><br />It's spoken in the first person by a supposed "third party" who "knew" the girl in the supposed tryst. Hecht's glib, crass tone suggest nothing of the style of the original poem.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-90182727438751834272010-04-05T15:59:35.960-07:002010-04-05T15:59:35.960-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-56635341163305858452010-04-05T15:45:11.679-07:002010-04-05T15:45:11.679-07:00Curtis, I believe parody is broader than your defi...Curtis, I believe parody is broader than your definition; comic parody can involve a variety of different approaches/piss-takes, provided (a) the work is humouros and (b) it is clearly a take on the original. I think The Dover Bitch fulfills these requirements; the fact that it may transcend them is beside the point. But let's just agree to disagree. <br /><br />Regarding those phrases you haven't 'studied', sure, they are weak out of context (as are countless phrases lifted from countless poems). My point was that they may not have been cliches, and you haven't said anything to convince me that they were. Who can know what we would have made of these if we'd been living 143 years ago? Take a similar leap into the future and there will probably be critics who'll snort at our present notions of what constitutes an 'original' or 'powerful' phrase. <br /><br />Now, it's nearly bedtime and I don't want to go bumping much further down this little trunk road. Enough semantics. I agree with much of what you said. Let's leave it at that.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-82282391232723239562010-04-05T14:28:58.576-07:002010-04-05T14:28:58.576-07:00Mark:
A parody is an imitation of an original--pa...Mark:<br /><br />A parody is an imitation of an original--particularly in style. This is not that.<br /><br />It's a sort of "criticism of life"--or criticism of Arnold.<br /><br />Beerbohm was a master of prose parody. Louis Untermeyer anthologized poetic parodies. Check those out. "A commentary or the personification of a contemporary take" is not a long way of saying parody; it's a description of what Hecht might have been attempting. Who can say what he was aiming at? --but not parody.<br /><br />I thought I did address your question about cliches. I've not studied these phrases, historically. But they seem rather weak when you look at them out of context. No contemporary poet would use them, not necessarily because they might have been used before, but simply because they have a trite, hackneyed ring. I mean, come on, "eternal note of sadness"?? Who would use such a phrase?Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-21596210022661574442010-04-05T10:23:20.063-07:002010-04-05T10:23:20.063-07:00Curtis, I think that parody is as good a descripti...Curtis, I think that parody is as good a description as "a commentary or the personification of a contemporary take", and it's less of a mouthful too. Of course, the commentary etc. is in there too, but the title, for one thing, definitely suggests parody. <br /><br />I agree though that the voice in Hecht's poem is very possibly a deliberate ventriloquism rather than his own attitude towards Dover Beach (or anything else) and that he may well have liked the poem; parodies (or whatever you wish to call them) can be a form of homage. <br /><br />But what about my query regarding the cliches? Any thoughts?Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-33490695072117040782010-04-05T08:14:02.454-07:002010-04-05T08:14:02.454-07:00Mark:
I don't think of Hecht's poem as a ...Mark:<br /><br />I don't think of Hecht's poem as a parody, as such.<br /><br />More, rather, as a commentary or the personification of a contemporary take on the earlier poem. I don't see the voice of Hecht's poem as standing for HIS attitude, but as the vehicle of an attitude which Hecht is equally estranged from. Hecht, I think, likes Dover Beach--it's a beautifully thought out situation, which teeters on the edge of indelicacy and pomposity, but just manages to pull back. That hesitancy is, I think, Victorian. When we try to talk about very large subjects, large implications, we may be tempted to use unavoidably broad kinds of descriptives. Strong emotion usually infuses language with force, but the pieces of this rhetoric may seem bland when looked at dispassionately.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-65600921091048818332010-04-05T08:03:44.347-07:002010-04-05T08:03:44.347-07:00PS
Forgot to sat thanks for Hecht's parody. I ...PS<br />Forgot to sat thanks for Hecht's parody. I enjoyed it.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-13266577540638750592010-04-05T08:00:13.100-07:002010-04-05T08:00:13.100-07:00"The eternal note of sadness"
"The..."The eternal note of sadness"<br /><br />"The Sea of Faith"<br /><br />"a bright girdle furled"<br /><br />"vast edges drear"<br /><br />"a land of dreams"<br /><br />Curtis, these are obviously cliches now, but were they then, when Arnold wrote the poem? And what about their combinations? Did anyone else come up with "vast edges drear / And naked shingles of the world" before Arnold penned it? "Into thin air" is an unforgivable cliche now, but I don't believe it was when Shakespeare wrote The Tempest. Perhaps you are correct, and all of the above were well-worn common currency in Victorian verse, so Arnold was merely shooting blanks. But if they weren't, and he wasn't, then it is meaningless to deride them as cliches. <br /><br />BTW, interesting what you say about Auden's Musee de Beaux Arts, though Auden's 'voice', ironic as always, is probably as much present in that poem as in anything else he wrote; all of our voices are partly constructed from attitudes/mores, etc. from whatever time we happen to exist in; this doesn't make them any less our own voices. I think Reznikoff understood how brilliant that poem is.Mark Granierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09899629187771913398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-77852581633261245552010-03-29T13:56:19.243-07:002010-03-29T13:56:19.243-07:00The seat of the scoffer.The seat of the scoffer.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-40004725996070177092010-03-29T09:54:41.372-07:002010-03-29T09:54:41.372-07:00AHHHH... them Victorians
and their White Cliffs of...AHHHH... them Victorians<br />and their White Cliffs of<br />Dover!<br /><br />found a bit about The Pearl<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pearl_%28magazine%29<br /><br />and a piece out of an issue:<br /><br />http://www.imaginaryplanet.net/weblogs/idiotprogrammer/2006/12/pearl-victorian-erotica-online/<br /><br />and, dig this connection ... the guy whose site this second link goes to well he also went to Hopkins... later than I and he notes that he studied yeah "studied" with Barth who was just there when I was there<br />and this John "Sot Weed.." guy insisted that I take out much <br />"stuff" from my Okeanos Rhoos thesis acuse it was "unintelligible" and no one would appreciate it as he didn't..<br /><br />anyway what was de:leated became/is Points/Counterpoints<br /><br />which gets me back to this topic at hand (no sexual innyouindoes intended)<br /><br />Mathew Arnold et all<br /><br />heck let us embrace them Victorian... entirely that John Ruskin COULD write... <br /><br />wasn't The Story of O done in those daze and that deQuincy Dope Eater Diary? I guess "it" all started when Ben Franklin visited Hingland and showed 'em how to set on a page a bnook from type?Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-59855762451761480852010-03-29T07:54:21.052-07:002010-03-29T07:54:21.052-07:00English Victorian sensibility was irretrievably bo...English Victorian sensibility was irretrievably bound by class, racial and sexual prejudice, which affected not just the common man, but intellectuals and those in positions of responsibility and in public life. It resisted directness and frankness about matters sexual. Arnold's propriety requires that he propose congress from the high ground of intellectual discourse ("this coyness, lady, were no crime") rather than naming his own base desires. What is the difference between wooing and lust? <br /><br />Hecht addresses the displacement between Victorian pretension and the blunt reality. Hecht isn't taking sides (and neither am I). Each age lives within the confines of its (mis-)conceptions. We may regard the adroitness of Arnold's not-very-elaborate maneuvering strategy in his poem, while still acknowledging what--to modern eyes--it appears to be about, unclothed.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-65238359067711257992010-03-29T07:23:48.307-07:002010-03-29T07:23:48.307-07:00Curtis,
I certainly do.
Eye and ear rejoice in t...Curtis,<br /><br />I certainly do.<br /><br />Eye and ear rejoice in the text though the message gives pause. Poet enjoins reader to hear (through rhythms), see ( through imagery) and feel(through prevailing mood)the despair of human love in the face of a brutal world.<br /><br />Every year or so I go through the ritual of rereading all the great English texts (from beginning to end), usually through the summer months: all of Browning, Blake, Milton, Wordsworth, etc. from beginning til end. It's my way of staying grounded in vital tradition. And Matthew Arnold is among the most rewarding poets.<br /><br />By temperament I guess I always bristle at characterizations of a great poet's work as "helplessly enervating and hesitant". I'm literally incapable of understanding a phrase like that.Conrad DiDiodatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312831623791642286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-25013557055686623922010-03-28T19:32:14.264-07:002010-03-28T19:32:14.264-07:00Conrad:
I find Arnold's poem to be a bit tire...Conrad:<br /><br />I find Arnold's poem to be a bit tiresome. And it does have cliches:<br /><br />"The eternal note of sadness"<br /><br />"The Sea of Faith"<br /><br />"a bright girdle furled"<br /><br />"vast edges drear"<br /><br />"a land of dreams"<br /><br />--which weaken a poem whose intellectual alembic isn't dense enough, or profound enough, to bear the weight it's intended to carry. <br /><br />Certain poems capture the imagination of history, or posterity, and acquire a significance far beyond their evident quality. Dover Beach is one of these, I'd wager.<br /><br />My intent is not to use the Hecht poem to "criticize" Arnold's poem, but simply to occasion a comparison. The Hecht poem is not one my favorites of his. Indeed, it may seem trite. But its triteness is not a measure of Hecht's lack of powers, or of any lack of sophistication. I submit it's his way of contrasting a cynical "modern" appreciation of the basis of Arnold's underlying "narrative" seen through glib eyes.<br /><br />Its irony has the same quality as Auden's Musee de Beaux Arts--it isn't Auden's voice we are hearing in that poem, but a constructed modern attitude partly being partly satirized, in much the same way that Hecht does.<br /><br />Do you really find Arnold's poem profound, or fresh?Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-20563558133488048402010-03-28T17:36:09.829-07:002010-03-28T17:36:09.829-07:00Curtis,
"Anyone who enjoys poetry will find ...Curtis,<br /><br />"Anyone who enjoys poetry will find Arnold's poem a billboard of familiar cliches, softened somewhat by an earlier style of address, and the Victorian pieties which threaten, at all points, to render vivid emotion and direct gesture, helplessly enervating and hesitant."<br /><br />do you really think "Dover Beach" is just the stale Victorian relic you say it is here, of antiquarian interest (at best).<br /><br />Billboard of familiar cliches!<br /><br />It's in my opinion one of the most finely-crafted poems in the English language: accessible, fresh to the eye and ear even after the hundredth reading and resonating with limitless ideas on the human condition. I suspect your view of the great poet-critic's poem is influenced a little by Hecht's silly sophomoric parody.Conrad DiDiodatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312831623791642286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-77006209881281211162010-03-28T14:35:59.131-07:002010-03-28T14:35:59.131-07:00I like the line (Arnold's) w "darkling pl...I like the line (Arnold's) w "darkling plain" ending it<br /> (the line, that is)<br /><br />reminds me of Thomas's "starry dingle"<br /><br />anyway on the way back from Greece 1969 Pauline ((Fay)"this girl")) and I<br /><br /><br />took the slow ferry from Calais to Dover...and<br /><br />I am gussing that they both are "diging" before The White Cliffs of...?<br /><br />HEY, they r e a l l y are WHITE (the cliffs of Dover)<br /><br />well ending of the Hecht piece well except for "her" running to fat"<br /><br />my muse remains yet just as she was/is...<br /><br /><br />hey and the Victorians had this magazine called The Pearl speaking of the "bestial" I used to have a copy of selections from The Pearl... but it disappeared...Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.com