tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post7713697589850892829..comments2024-03-19T21:14:01.007-07:00Comments on The Compass Rose: Capacity & Limitation - Failure as a Creative ActCurtis Favillehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-88961721205555762352009-11-11T09:40:44.906-08:002009-11-11T09:40:44.906-08:00I've read the Pisan cantos--haven't master...I've read the Pisan cantos--haven't mastered the entire work, and I don't recognize all the allusions to italian politics, so forth. We could call it the fragmentation of European civilization, decay in a Spenglerian sense (though I doubt EP had read Spengler, the Cantos seems Spenglerian)--the sort of the typical lit-hack generalization. . <br /><br />Maybe it's pompous and chaotic taken as a whole, but certain sections have a Villonesque quality which seem like, well, poetry (as do the actual condemnations-- ie the one with like Churchill speaking out of his a**hole, or something....). <br /><br />I'm not so interested in the epic historical moments represented in verse, ie the great yankee noblemen John Adams, Jefferson, etc. seems a bit awkward and dated now ---. Yet the history is important, and hints at a type of continuity--though he's not Hegelian, per se. Like Joyce, EP was reading Vico wasn't he? I think it's a rather skeptical piece of writing as well (which also seems sort of Spenglerian)--ie western civ. crumbling, broken columns, turks in the cathedral, etc. Not sure I would call it ....a-theist....but manichean nearly....Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-82076229309675794312009-11-11T08:59:58.622-08:002009-11-11T08:59:58.622-08:00My post is primarily about how/why Eliot is still ...My post is primarily about how/why Eliot is still regarded as the archetype Modernist, despite his retrograde poetics and critical positions. Pound is another matter entirely, thought their common traits and concerns is also an interesting area of interest.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-65419922449201089642009-11-11T08:58:09.776-08:002009-11-11T08:58:09.776-08:00It's interesting to think of the "dis&quo...It's interesting to think of the "dis"-organization of Pound's thought in The Cantos. What DID he intend the poem to signify? Certainly not a narrative in any ordinary sense of the word, even of his own life. <br /><br />Pound read from multiple sources, and (with cribs and translations) from many literatures. He understood that literature without a position was weak and trivial, so he undertook to construct a world view which would/could account for all the relevant factors. But he was an amateur at it--indeed, who among us is not?--and ended up with a hodge-podge of conflicting principles and theories and interests, which would never cohere into an integrated whole. But, then, he didn't live in an integrated age. Perhaps the chaotic tapestry of The Cantos mirrors the confusion of the 19th-20th Centuries. It's un-characteristic of its time in many ways--and a tribute to Pound's profound eccentricity.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-5223962632806738782009-11-11T08:47:28.420-08:002009-11-11T08:47:28.420-08:00Pound had set upon the trick of expressing, for in...<i>Pound had set upon the trick of expressing, for instance, among other things, sardonic irony (Villon) or pastoral erotic naivete (Cavalcanti).</i><br /><br />Villon may be root of Pound's authentic poetic voice, really. Irony itself--and the images of death, gallows, low-lifes, whores, in Villon's writing--would counter any platonic interpretations (or possibly Aristotelian, but Ari. allowed for some comedy, did he not). I'm no medievalist (Je peux lire un peu français....)but.... that's Pound's soul-- (though with a bit of enlightenment republicanism ala Madison, Jeff.etc, and Robt. Browning). Rabelais was another influence on Pound (TS Eliot's writing doesn't seem as aware of those influences).<br /><br />'Mericans usually consider any medieval nostalgia as variations on Camelot, or sword and sorcery BS, and generally don't get the "code" (again, Aristotelian, mainly)--courtly, virtu, etc. yet.....permeated with death, destruction, plague--as with Chaucer's Pardoner's Tale. Some college narcissists might read that as comedy, when it's really akin to like a Bosch painting or something. <br /><br />Hipsters who dismiss Pound's Cantos don't seem overly aware of that Villonesque, tragic-satirical voice (with Dantean aspects as well).Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-71955472037278493052009-11-07T21:51:10.551-08:002009-11-07T21:51:10.551-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.0000000https://www.blogger.com/profile/14767771887014774485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-43552742080476333932009-11-07T13:49:13.499-08:002009-11-07T13:49:13.499-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.0000000https://www.blogger.com/profile/14767771887014774485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-76877954384559027512009-11-07T07:09:40.066-08:002009-11-07T07:09:40.066-08:00Curtis,
I didn't mean to suggest you were nam...Curtis,<br /><br />I didn't mean to suggest you were name-dropping in any pejorative sense but just that Gray and Eliot, in the same post, always make for interesting discussion.The "Elegy" is my favourite poem in the English language.<br /><br />That you wrote your best papers on these guys is no accident: only the very best bring out the best in us. As I've been trying to argue for years (and more recently in my blog) we've seen a lot of dross because of this almost obsessive concern with the early- to midcentury avant-gardism of Pound, Stein and all their very bad imitators (especially in my beloved Canada)The only poets worth reading in that early experimentalist tradition (in my opinion)are Olson, Creeley, Duncan and Spicer.Conrad DiDiodatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312831623791642286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-28897030310182814022009-11-06T19:07:48.729-08:002009-11-06T19:07:48.729-08:00I've read a bit of Ari. (and Jowett's Plat...I've read a bit of Ari. (and Jowett's Plato), and EP's ABC of R....Lit. Essays, and the Cantos, and ....considering even basic obvious themes---like Usura----Pound does belong in the Aristotelian-humanist tradition (with a bit of Dante, and perhaps Aquinas), politically as well. EP was also a fairly skilled latinist (though I have read his hellenism was a bit exaggerated). <br /><br />See Jefferson and/or Mussolini--not too PC, but Pound DID in fact reference Aristotle's politics, and general republicanism, which he says the 'Mericans--ie Jeff. Ham/Mad./JQ Adams--advanced, at least slightly. <br /><br />Or this: <br />http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/pound_ezra/economic.html<br /><br /><i>""""The usual frauds of book-keeping, monopoly, etc., have been known since the beginning of history, and it is precisely for this reason that the usurers are opposed to classical studies. Aristotle, in his POLITICS 1. 4/5, relates how Thales, wishing to show that a philosopher could easily “make money” if he had nothing better to do, foreseeing a bumper crop of olives, hired by paying a small deposit, all the olive presses on the islands of Miletus and Chios. When the abundant harvest arrived, everybody went to see Thales. Aristotle remarks that this is a common business practice. """</i><br /><br />Whoop! Res Ipza L. <br /><br />(I don't know the whole scoop on WW, but I don't think EP really enjoyed vers libre ala WW, but tolerated it).Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-42633044214588617882009-11-06T17:26:49.903-08:002009-11-06T17:26:49.903-08:00"he's returned to Aristotle"
well, ..."he's returned to Aristotle"<br /><br />well, hell: bypass Hairystotle<br />and go directumly to:<br /><br />Jowett's<br /><br />The Philosophy of Plato<br /><br />via The Modern Library Books <br /><br />meanwhile, watch<br /><br />Logan's Run ( or read the book)Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-59144766671114892622009-11-06T17:04:44.841-08:002009-11-06T17:04:44.841-08:00I discovered Fenollosa
via (his wife) sending Pou...I discovered Fenollosa <br />via (his wife) sending Pound that manuscript.<br /><br />and Pounds ABC s of Reading...<br /> otherwise <br /><br />"elementary, my Dear Watson. Elementary!"<br /><br /> some "stuff" about 'kissing off' EP here:<br /><br />http://edbaker.maikosoft.com/okeanos_rhoos/1.htmlEd Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-9313808859977437342009-11-06T17:01:27.217-08:002009-11-06T17:01:27.217-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.0000000https://www.blogger.com/profile/14767771887014774485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-71729682449515262222009-11-06T16:39:22.611-08:002009-11-06T16:39:22.611-08:00Gosh, Conrad, I would never have thought of myself...Gosh, Conrad, I would never have thought of myself as a name-dropper.<br /><br />I once did a longish paper on Gray's Elegy, many years ago, but I think now I'd think differently about it. It is, in its way, skillful, and I imagine that, for its time, it probably was rather innovative--but not to our ears, given the intervening centuries of dreck.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-6958717366508934302009-11-06T16:30:39.620-08:002009-11-06T16:30:39.620-08:00What's good, or sounds good in The Wasteland p...What's good, or sounds good in The Wasteland probably derives from EP (what was it, il miglior fabbro.....yes), who had an ear; TSE's ear, assuming he had one, being the proverbial tin sort. <br /><br /><br /><br />Both EP and TSE were I believe attempting a sort of royalist politics via literature (though of course not merely dilletantes, or phonies of the Kirby Olson sort). They detested all the romantics (even their intellectual superiors, like Coleridge, or Shelley), and any American writer who ever lived. TSE may have possessed a deep profound, critical mind, but not sure he was a deep and profound poet. And I wager during WWII Eliot was the one rooting for the golden boys of the Waffen SS...(Pound obviously not so innocent in regards to that, but did at one time diss Der Fuhrer as insane, more or less). <br /><br />It all sounds anglo really but Pound of 30s rejects England as a whole. However crass his yawp barbaric of the Cantos sounds, he's returned to Aristotle, founding fathers, economics etc. He refuses to return to the Cross as well (at least ostensibly)....<br /><br />We will find out, or notJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-17209127142566894682009-11-06T14:18:35.049-08:002009-11-06T14:18:35.049-08:00Curtis,
you've got here in one post my favour...Curtis,<br /><br />you've got here in one post my favourite critic (not poet)T.S. Eliot and favourite poem Gray's "Elegy" (which I once knew by heart). I wish sometimes there were more discussion of English poetry/poets my mostly English profs in the 70s taught with skill and enthusiasm.<br /><br />I agree that, on the whole, these Modernist giants were also colossal flops, especially Pound with whose "Cantos" I'm not in the least impressed. Though as translator of Villon, Cavalcanti, et al) and some Anglo Saxon verse, he was outstanding. But it's true: Eliot and Pound were great imitators.<br /><br />Gray and Pope in the same blog article:a good day's work, Curtis!Conrad DiDiodatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312831623791642286noreply@blogger.com