tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post2369427536176764260..comments2024-03-19T21:14:01.007-07:00Comments on The Compass Rose: Kenneth Koch's "Sleeping With Women" [1969]Curtis Favillehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-57123994407213681632010-09-02T08:39:12.030-07:002010-09-02T08:39:12.030-07:00didn't somebody try to shoot him once
interes...<i>didn't somebody try to shoot him once</i><br /><br />interesting countercultural factoid--an anarchist group known as the ..."motherf*ckers" did take a shot at Koch....but it was just a blank jh--tho Kochski supposed swooned and fainted:<br /><br /><br /><i>What happened with the "assassination" of the poet Ken Koch in 1967?<br />Ben: Koch was a symbol to us of this totally bourgeois, dandy world. Myself, Dan Georgakas, Alan Van Newkirk and some of the other Black Mask people went to one of his readings. I think I came up with idea to shoot him with a blank pistol. Alan looked like the classic image of the bomb throwing anarchist. He was about six foot three, long and thin with a gaunt face and always dressed in black - the anarchist incarnate. So we decided "You're the one, you're going to shoot him." (laughter) We printed a leaflet and all it had on it was a picture of Leroi Jones with the words `Poetry is revolution.' On the night when Alan shot the blank Koch fainted and everyone in the audience assumed he was dead and started screaming . Some people threw the leaflet from the balcony into the crowd and then we all left.<br /><br />Reactions after the event were split between people who thought it was the greatest thing they'd ever heard and those that thought we were a bunch of sophomoric assholes. Which was great because so much of what Black Mask and The Family was about was pushing people to decide "Do I belong with this group of people or this one?" We were determined to be outrageous in order to force people to decide where they stood on things. We wanted to push people, force them to think. "Why shoot Koch? He's just a nice poet."</i><br /><br />Heh heh. Koch the "bourgeois dandy"--hey, that's like the Hallmark biz as a whole. Abbie Hoffman--not exactly a role model, but not a complete dunce-- thought along those lines too. Abbie had no love for Kirby O's Naropa palsies either.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-75714853365764460472010-09-01T20:07:13.789-07:002010-09-01T20:07:13.789-07:00George:
It's true, Starbuck was more open-min...George:<br /><br />It's true, Starbuck was more open-minded than others who held that position, but let's face it, George was a formalist, tried and true. I remember Dave Morice telling me about his first meeting with George, who told Dave "you have some very nice little 'genre poems in this sheaf'" [David fuming with indignation!]. Bell hated Berrigan, and later "confronted" Watten about the unwelcome "felicity" from the back benchers at the Richard Howard reading:<br /><br />Bell: "You need to tell these people to knock this stuff off."<br />Watten: "What do you want me to do about it?"<br />Bell: "You know these people. This is unacceptable behavior!"<br />Bell: "Tell them yourself, Marvin!"<br /><br />Anselm later told me Bell had nixed Berrigan's extension for 1969-70, in favor of Marshall/Fraser/Ray & co. Anselm was bitter about it, because he and Berrigan really liked each other. <br /><br />Olden times....Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-60715239204081359982010-09-01T19:43:34.332-07:002010-09-01T19:43:34.332-07:00I was going to say I remember this reading well, b...I was going to say I remember this reading well, but, compared to your account, I should say "NOT so well!" Though this post has re-connected some synapses in the memory sphere. Thanks, Curtis. <br /><br />Was George Starbuck still head of the Workshop? Or was John Leggett? While Marvin Bell had locked horns with the New York (and like-minded) writers, my memory is that Starbuck was much more open-minded & enjoyed creating ferment. After all he invited Ted Berrigan, and couldn't have been unaware of Ted's (well-deserved!) reputation.<br /><br />BTW I took a workshop course from Bell and for me he was an excellent teacher. Despite the fact that he referred to me as "Ted's clone." (and not just behind my back)<br /><br />Anyway thanks for posting this: a great memory (and history) piece.George Mattinglyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11844284835653397986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-8837776446865246082010-09-01T19:42:43.266-07:002010-09-01T19:42:43.266-07:00I was going to say I remember this reading well, b...I was going to say I remember this reading well, but, compared to your account, I should say "NOT so well!" Though this post has re-connected some synapses in the memory sphere. Thanks, Curtis. <br /><br />Was George Starbuck still head of the Workshop? Or was John Leggett? While Marvin Bell had locked horns with the New York (and like-minded) writers, my memory is that Starbuck was much more open-minded & enjoyed creating ferment. After all he invited Ted Berrigan, and couldn't have been unaware of Ted's (well-deserved!) reputation.<br /><br />BTW I took a workshop course from Bell and for me he was an excellent teacher. Despite the fact that he referred to me as "Ted's clone." (and not just behind my back)<br /><br />Anyway thanks for posting this: a great memory (and history) piece.George Mattinglyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11844284835653397986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-77076338109224062772010-08-31T13:04:52.971-07:002010-08-31T13:04:52.971-07:00what did Yeats once yawp?
"all out of shape ...what did Yeats once yawp?<br /><br />"all out of shape from toe to top"<br /><br />that's 95% of vers libre<br /><br />(actually DH Lawrence penned some interesting v-l...suave rico...decades ago. or Jeffers )Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-41079316717073998782010-08-31T06:24:46.480-07:002010-08-31T06:24:46.480-07:00"She" was Hillary.
JH gets the pulse of..."She" was Hillary.<br /><br />JH gets the pulse of the poem, and is dead on, as usual.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-26461388343998966762010-08-30T20:15:16.231-07:002010-08-30T20:15:16.231-07:00the poem seems to hold onto a spirit of light roma...the poem seems to hold onto a spirit of light romanticism and wonder<br /><br />he is conscious of the surreal<br />and i think<br />utilizes the surreal affect <br /><br /><br />would any woman poet state so elegantly the same musings toward<br />"sleeping with men"<br /><br />there is a definite music in this poem<br />i think it holds up 40 yrs later<br />holds up like the inkling of things to come about things that might indeed happen<br /><br />where it dies today is that no one exists anymore who can give expression to this sort of tension of love desire near despair and quiet hope<br /><br />i'm reminded that kenneth koch also possessed a tender concern for children and the elderly<br /><br />didn't somebody try to shoot him once<br /><br />surely the second coming <br />what rough beast<br /><br />jh<br /><br />so much anonymity over here<br />you're getting downright popularjhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10043530995274885830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-7359346987544602032010-08-30T17:48:53.757-07:002010-08-30T17:48:53.757-07:00Who is "she"?Who is "she"?Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-62669425002966009472010-08-30T17:44:18.526-07:002010-08-30T17:44:18.526-07:00It will be photos of her running from live bullets...It will be photos of her running from live bullets in a Sarajevo of her imagination, probably.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-54477829767145087872010-08-30T14:38:22.703-07:002010-08-30T14:38:22.703-07:00Kirb:
That's interesting. Do you really thin...Kirb:<br /><br />That's interesting. Do you really think HIllary's the prude? I doubt it. She's hard as nails. She was happy to be Bill's girl, until he started messing around. <br /><br />Now that they're probably both celibate, she doesn't even pay attention to stuff like that. She's more interested in her "legacy" now. Maybe she'll have to build her own Secretary's Library and stock it with...who knows what?Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-4184116048038408112010-08-30T12:12:35.408-07:002010-08-30T12:12:35.408-07:00what else does a poem do
but to call forth for a
c...what else does a poem do<br />but to call forth for a<br />continuous want to "sleep with woman" and thus<br />provoke The Muse?<br /><br />just make sure that your "muse" has taken her birth-control pill<br />and that you have a pen and paper next to the ...<br /><br />site.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-50110269920503732632010-08-30T11:42:40.698-07:002010-08-30T11:42:40.698-07:00This should be Bill Clinton's poem!
I like ho...This should be Bill Clinton's poem!<br /><br />I like how he plays with the innocence of sleeping (actually sleeping) as compared to the euphemism for screwing, which the term belies. <br /><br />Its innocence makes it acceptable, but the other meaning is always there, too. He's dancing on the line between a kind of childish innocence, and a certain kind of 60s naughtiness. It makes an interesting tension...<br /><br />It made me think of Bill Clinton who I think would really enjoy this poem. But I think Hillary Clinton wouldn't like it at all.<br /><br />The surrealist line of recursive litany as well as Whitman's line, his long sleepy lines, are here, but the coyness is all Koch's.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-80645070141204553212010-08-30T10:44:40.317-07:002010-08-30T10:44:40.317-07:00useless, fugly kitschy dreck, F-ville. Like their ...useless, fugly kitschy dreck, F-ville. Like their guru Whitman. They shoulda stuck with like flower arrangement, instead of further destroying the language. Or paraphrasing Bierce re Wilde, he-hens who think they fly with Shelley, Coleridge, Poe et al<br /><br />ANSTEIGEN!Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-13249277053491813192010-08-30T09:02:00.442-07:002010-08-30T09:02:00.442-07:00Curtis,
as you say, the effect is that of riding ...Curtis,<br /><br />as you say, the effect is that of riding in a mental landscape. And I think poetic rhythm clearly makes that connection of movement to surrealistic thought. If I roughly scan the opening seven lines (x for unstressed, / for primary stressed syllables, \ for secondary stressed syllables), it's easy to see how a predominantly swift dactylic meter, occasionaly interrupted by the line's syntactic break (punctuation), can produce that troubling 'broken' reverie of poet whose imagination is running away with him:<br /><br /> x / x x / <br />Caruso: a voice.<br /> / x / x x / x<br />Naples: sleeping with women.<br /> / x / x x x /<br />Women: sleeping in the dark.<br /> / x x / x <br />Voices: a music.<br /> x / / x / x<br />Pompeii: a ruin.<br /> x / / / x x / x<br />Pompeii: sleeping with women.<br /> / / x x / x / x<br />Men sleeping with women, women <br /> / x x / x<br />sleeping with women, etc.<br /><br />Koch's lines are not meant (I believe)to be read as an insistent rhythm since it's to the speech (& poet's own quirky half-obsessed personality) that we're drawn. I love the way (a fact typically reinforced by meter)the current of obsessive thought always tends to get stuck at crucial (interestingly moral-psychological)impasses. The lines here have been so artfully arranged as to allow both rhythms & the curious inner tensions to arise.<br /><br />Here's poetry as antidote to the typical language slaughter of a lot of contemporary verse. Thanks for posting Koch's wonderful "Sleeping with Women" poem.Conrad DiDiodatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18312831623791642286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-74822674754648083052010-08-30T08:00:49.314-07:002010-08-30T08:00:49.314-07:00Thanks very much. I really enjoyed reading this.Thanks very much. I really enjoyed reading this.Curtis Robertsnoreply@blogger.com