tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post4848973964807013415..comments2024-03-19T21:14:01.007-07:00Comments on The Compass Rose: Universal Health and the Global EconomyCurtis Favillehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-27703057708831413152010-03-05T13:45:49.167-08:002010-03-05T13:45:49.167-08:00We don't want an economy built around the Swed...<i>We don't want an economy built around the Swedish or German models, where everyone pays out more than half their income to the state, in return for being kept as de-facto chattels of Mother.</i><br /><br />We don't? Depends where you stand, Sir F.-- Deutschland may not be great for real estate speculators, sales-bots, stockbrokers, executives, or other types of financial shysters. But workers, even intellectual workers (ie educators, engineers, doctors, etc) definitely have a better situation, superior benefits, longer vacations, health care, so forth. The Germans and swedish education systems far outrank the US as well. Northern Europe (including UK) may seem a bit cold and bureaucratic to some 'Mericans, to others it looks something like...Ordnung....(and really even in regards to civil liberties, hardly as conservative or police state-like as US).<br /><br />Aren't you a Cal alum? Brad DeLong, Cal econ. guru penned some essays a few months ago on the desirability of swedish economic/social models. I was nearly impressed ('specially since DeLong usually just chants the endless Keynesian macro. jive...)Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-19455924780508354092010-03-05T13:12:52.538-08:002010-03-05T13:12:52.538-08:00[part II]--
"As far as your somewhat Randian...[part II]--<br /><br />"As far as your somewhat Randian or libertarian critiques go, the real hicks are the raving anti-tax teabaggers who have yet to realize that Reagan- style supply-side econ. (actually the biggest cuts weren't until '86) are not synonymous with American tradition. Even RR at times protected New Deal programs (unlike the Bush gang, or Clinton for that matter)."<br /><br />I am not a conservative, nor do I take a libertarian stance on anything. These tags presume a kind of philosophical position irrespective of applications. I think of things in terms of their practical applications--not in terms of insisting on unworkable programs simply because they're being "the right thing to do"--there is no "right thing" unless is actually works. If our private insurance industry no longer "works" then it needs to be tweaked or fixed so that it does serve its publics; I'm NOT convinced that precipitously incorporating the bottom 25% of uncovered (or poorly covered, by Medicaid and local hospitals) Americans into a big one-size fits all system will really result in satisfactory universal care for everyone. For those people who currently have a full range health care policy, I think they would stand to lose benefits and quality under the Obama plan. If that's of no concern to you, then fine, you've made your point. But those policy-holders--in large part the working middle-class folks--might prefer to let the status-quo continue, instead of trashing it in favor of a new universal system. <br /><br />"Humans depend on essential services and programs, such as Medicare (which could easily be upgraded), or state/county facilities. Tax rates will need to be increased to cover costs. For that matter, the state of CA's out of money as well. At least they'll need more tax revenues to fund more prisons for the...rabble that the GOP yacht club has laid off, and turned into perps or mental patients."<br /><br />The budgetary short-falls you describe won't support new swaths of "mass entitlement" as proposed by Obama. We can't simply keep raising taxes and fees. At some point, the services we think of as entitlements will be curtailed by the dimensions of the overall economy. As the American economy shrinks, so will all the benefits we've become accustomed to. Health coverage isn't a right, it's a privilege, a product which you buy. If you insist on defining it as a right, then you have to figure out a cost-benefit analysis which makes that right affordable. Cost isn't an irrelevancy, it's the whole ball of wax.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-14671221751376803162010-03-05T13:12:26.828-08:002010-03-05T13:12:26.828-08:00"Not motivated by envy, resentment, nor hatre..."Not motivated by envy, resentment, nor hatred, but mainly by pragmatism, tho' will admit to a slight interest in something like social justice, rather than assisting oligarchies--not the same as collectivism, though even ...marxist-statist strategies are worth a few nano-seconds of reflection. I don't begrudge say my fairly wealthy doctor neighbors, or the few successful teachers, or engineers. But most wealthy around SoCal tend to be members of the ...pimpocracy--brokers, lawyers, real estate and insurance shysters, entertainment and athletic hucksters, if not actual porno producers....(ah sh**t you not)"<br /><br />J: America has been losing its middle class. Our agricultural and manufacturing middle class has been evaporating, facilitated by tax and employment regulation which favors offshore-ing. When America was prosperous, in the 1950's and 1960's, our middle class was earning a decent income, and could, with a little moxie, afford a single family house, a reliable car (or two), and a decent health plan. Those days are gone. Today it takes two members of a household (or more) to maintain a semblance of the same prosperity--this is the real root of the problem. With less capital staying in America, and fewer middle-class jobs, the tax base has collapsed. The answer to the problem of how to pay for the things this middle class tax based once supported, isn't to tax homeowners or upper middle class professionals up to the hilt. We don't want an economy built around the Swedish or German models, where everyone pays out more than half their income to the state, in return for being kept as de-facto chattels of Mother. What IS NEEDED is sensible regulation and oversight of the banking and insurance industries, to prevent them from gaming and gouging-- <br /><br />[end part I]Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-52519569688508718322010-03-05T12:01:50.073-08:002010-03-05T12:01:50.073-08:00Not motivated by envy, resentment, nor hatred, but...Not motivated by envy, resentment, nor hatred, but mainly by pragmatism, tho' will admit to a slight interest in something like social justice, rather than assisting oligarchies--not the same as collectivism, though even ...marxist-statist strategies are worth a few nano-seconds of reflection. I don't begrudge say my fairly wealthy doctor neighbors, or the few successful teachers, or engineers. But most wealthy around SoCal tend to be members of the ...pimpocracy--brokers, lawyers, real estate and insurance shysters, entertainment and athletic hucksters, if not actual porno producers....(ah sh**t you not) <br /><br />As far as your somewhat Randian or libertarian critiques go, the real hicks are the raving anti-tax teabaggers who have yet to realize that Reagan- style supply-side econ. (actually the biggest cuts weren't until '86) are not synonymous with American tradition. Even RR at times protected New Deal programs (unlike the Bush gang, or Clinton for that matter).<br /><br />Humans depend on essential services and programs, such as Medicare (which could easily be upgraded), or state/county facilities. Tax rates will need to be increased to cover costs. For that matter, the state of CA's out of money as well. At least they'll need more tax revenues to fund more prisons for the...rabble that the GOP yacht club has laid off, and turned into perps or mental patients.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-73822724061944237472010-03-05T11:21:34.016-08:002010-03-05T11:21:34.016-08:00J:
You seem to see things exclusively in terms of...J:<br /><br />You seem to see things exclusively in terms of the competing partisan versions of events. I see both sides as selfishly fronting for impractical and consciously fake agendas, neither side willing to acknowledge the potential downside of their programs. You parrot the usual "tax the shit out those filthy rich folks," as if politics and the business of government were a playground contest of getting even with people you envy and despise. But there may be good reasons for a graduated income tax, which have nothing to do with class envy and resentment. Bush II pushed through tax cuts for the rich, just at the moment it seemed we stood on the threshold of balancing our Federal budget. It shouldn't have been allowed, but it happened. Then, as we know, he started two foreign wars, and added the drug bill to his legacy. Without those tax cuts--which you may remember were supposed to create jobs--and war spending, our ability to pay for expanded health benefits would look a lot different today. <br /><br />But you can't turn back the clock. The money we might have allocated to health coverage is gone. You can't simply say, build the deficit indefinitely. Deficit spending is killing our economy. America's economic position in the world has been steadily declining over the last three decades. Our middle class is being gutted. We're all going to have to do more, with less. We can't afford everything we think we need. We can't have an empire military and also a huge welfare state with 60% of the population receiving aid. We've gone from being a productive economy, to being one focused on consumption. Our consumption has been underwritten ("subsidized" actually) through loans and borrowing and leveraging inflated real estate and stock. But the bill collector is knocking at the door. Are you in a position to pay him now, or do you want another extension. There isn't enough ore in them thar hills to pay for all the things we think we need and want.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-85871189889010990392010-03-05T10:54:47.302-08:002010-03-05T10:54:47.302-08:00Uh oh "The Left," and then the usual ad ...Uh oh "The Left," and then the usual ad homs.<br /><br />KO's mistaken on what the public supports as well: why did Obama, pro-health care, win by vast majority, and the anti-h-c team of McCaint and Sarah Klondike (KO's aesthetic heroine) FAIL? <br /><br />Are the people on Medicare the Left as well? Or the politicians who supported it (including ....Reagan himself, who raised payroll taxes slightly to improve Medicare) <br /><br />Back in the day (as under the FDR admin....that's like US History, not Heroic Lit. for Hard-right Conservatives),the repugs protested medicare, S.S, and most govt programs (even health codes)--yapping socialism, the left, marxism, interventionism, etc. BS. The programs passed, and the majority wanted 'em. <br /><br /> Small reforms to Medicare and VA (send transients to VA, say) would suffice. Even some repubs support that. It's the teabagger know-nothing left who's obstructing what the public wants (foxco idjits for instance continually repeat taxes are "sky high," when they're barely above BushCo levels). <br /><br />Slight capital gains increases on ueber-rich could pay for, like, everything and balance the budget, but that sort of reasonable reform won't happen. Youll have to wait until Hugo Chavez is at the door (tho teabaggers, if they live, will be getting their h-c in a gulag most likely)Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-88704974504710225262010-03-05T07:26:53.747-08:002010-03-05T07:26:53.747-08:00It's not really about funding h-c for transien...It's not really about funding h-c for transients. Working poor, or struggling families and individuals, the unemployed are not usually ....street peoples, many of whom are mentally ill anyway, or have some institutional support (though in CA, Ahhnuldnomics resulted in many mentally ill being let loose--). <br /><br />Transients have county facilities anyway, which are not great, but generally suffice (and to be honest, many people, not just bums, make use of county facilies-- in ellay county at least, and they need improvements).<br /><br />But it's not really about helping transients (though for many, a heroin stipend might be of some assistance), but about affordable, accessible health care for people of modest means, up to say middle class. Successful, or middle class people (say 40 grand per annum+) have decent plans, if not great, and they should not be allowed to save hundreds or thousands by using public h-c. <br /><br />I don't think modest tax increases to improve h-c, especially on upper brackets or corporations are mistaken either. The govt. should take out the insurance racket also, but that's not likely to happen. Businessmen don't want the higher premiums, but they didn't want worker's comp and labor laws either. Compared to the EU, the US is still living in the 19th century. The GOP greedheads opposed even the moderate reform--say allowing people to join Medicare at 60 (or better, 55) instead of 65 or whatever...Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-50923233040743598862010-03-04T20:25:00.401-08:002010-03-04T20:25:00.401-08:00I don't think anybody cares who they share it ...I don't think anybody cares who they share it with (the left loves to pull the race canard, but it has nothing to do with this).<br /><br />The thing is that you have to have a system that's sustainable.<br /><br />Obama has no clue how to do this, and is legislating an unworkable system that is going to drown the country in debt, chase our remaining industry overseas, and then he's going to write another memoir about how cool he is.<br /><br />The guy has never held a real job or had to make a payroll. He's nuts.<br /><br />Ideally, I would love it everybody had an entire hospital waiting on them hand and foot. I'd love it every person on earth had this. From Calcutta to Zimbabwe.<br /><br />In fact, I would love it if no animals were ever again injured, people ate no meat, and ladybugs were presidents, and crabs could cruise in convertibles through Bikini Bottom, reciting wondrous quatrains.<br /><br />In the immediate present, I want a sustainable tax base, industries that feel like they have a fair shake in this country, a president with a realistic sense for how to make that happen, and no dumb moves forward that cause the whole system to collapse.<br /><br />And yes, some 80% or more Americans are satisfied with their health insurance.<br /><br />Obama's going to screw it all up, and bring the whole system down.<br /><br />He's a dope, without the faintest trace of a clue. Pelosi is just as bad. Howard Dean is a shrieking train wreck.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-22678775218597370722010-03-04T19:05:23.770-08:002010-03-04T19:05:23.770-08:00J:
My fear--which Kirby may share, I'm not su...J:<br /><br />My fear--which Kirby may share, I'm not sure what his true position is here--is that a Federal universal health care program would compromise the coverage of everyone whose annual income is below, say, 125,000/annum in order to accommodate the bottom 25% of Americans who either have no employment, or no income to contribute to the system. Why the great majority of Americans who already have coverage should be required to fund this group is not clear. Is this social engineering?<br /><br />I believe the real solution to be strict regulation--probably a Federal agency which monitors ALL health care insurance outfits, and makes them toe the line. I have a feeling that legislators are choosing universal coverage as a chickenshit way out of that problem. I think medical care needs to be incentivised, but it also needs to be regulated. <br /><br />I feel the same way about our banking system. The controls were all removed in the 1980's and 1990's and look at the result.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-11966900978850772302010-03-04T07:59:53.373-08:002010-03-04T07:59:53.373-08:00KO is out to lunc here*
Here, there and everywher...<i>KO is out to lunc here*</i><br /><br />Here, there and everywhere, KO's out to lunch. As with his claim that Americans don't want health care--complete f-ing BS. The Lending crisis (brought about by bipartisan de-reg--ie Gramm/Gingrich/Clinton) or ACORN has nothing to with it--that's a Fox style red herring 101. <br /><br />When KO and teabagger types whine about public h-c, they mean something like all the good WASPs on the block in Pleasantville don't care to go to hospitals or clinic alongside ...the poor, or "colored peoples," nor have their taxes raised a few twenties a year to pay for it. <br /><br />Many Americans, even educated ones, never hit it big in the free market casino (including the academic free market)--unless one has a great job, there's usually copays, or the plan doesn't cover essentials (like dentistry, or eye care, etc). In effect, they pay more for h-c than many middle class, or wealthy via expensive temporary h-c programs, or cash at the doctor or dentist.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-68599514296231122512010-03-04T06:13:44.136-08:002010-03-04T06:13:44.136-08:00We need a less corrupt president. The one we just ...We need a less corrupt president. The one we just had was fairly corrupt when it came to big business. He wouldn't stadnd up to illegal immigration.<br /><br />The new one is even worse. Now he's bribing Scott Matheson to vote for stealthcare for Mexican illegals by offering to make his brother a federal judge in exchange for his vote.<br /><br /><br />I don't know if there is such a thing as an honest politician who will stand for genuine principles. It's like Diogenes looking for a real man in the daytime with his lamp.<br /><br />All politicians will burn in hell?Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-69090558834734911412010-03-03T17:34:33.593-08:002010-03-03T17:34:33.593-08:00Corporate lobbyists have managed to rig the tax an...Corporate lobbyists have managed to rig the tax and trade systems so that it's actually more profitable to send American capital and natural resources overseas, and do the manufacturing there, and sell it back to Americans at "American prices" than it is to produce things here. That's just madness. <br /><br />American automobile manufacturers didn't start contracting outside our borders until it became financially advantageous to do so. We need to remove those incentives, if we want to regain the productivity which once drove our prosperity. The choice is simple: Either we produce and profit, or we just consume our way into a long decline.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-91005330634251250172010-03-03T17:22:09.285-08:002010-03-03T17:22:09.285-08:00Union workers in Detroit were making fifty dollars...Union workers in Detroit were making fifty dollars an hour in the 1960s pumping ingots along the assembly line.<br /><br />If you can pay someone today 2 dollars to do the same work, why wouldn't you?<br /><br />Other countries don't even have minimum wages, for the most part, so of course the car industry and other industry will relocate.<br /><br />Any job that can relocate will relocate. The high school guidance counselors now say get a job that can't be shipped overseas.<br /><br />That's just face to face stuff, I guess, which mostly means government jobs.<br /><br />It's hard to understand what could turn the rig around, and get America going in the right direction again. Protectionism? <br />Higher tariffs on foreign imports?<br /><br />Pulling the army from around the world home would just mean thousands and thousands of angry, hostile, well-armed and trained lunatics.<br /><br />Better national boundaries would be a good thing to use the army for -- placing them up and down the Mexican border, I suppose.<br /><br />No one wants to even discuss that on either side. Would lose the Hispanic vote.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-47381467147200116552010-03-03T10:07:23.437-08:002010-03-03T10:07:23.437-08:00George:
I've added a response to this in the ...George:<br /><br />I've added a response to this in the body of the blog as an Addendum 3/3/10.Curtis Favillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213075853354387634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-78268943998043549162010-03-03T09:06:40.397-08:002010-03-03T09:06:40.397-08:00Rational discussions of policy aren't facilita...Rational discussions of policy aren't facilitated by the use of fantasy.<br /><br />KO is out to lunc here* EXCEPT for his complaint about "mak[ing] insurance companies pay out to people that they know are bad risks."<br /><br />Most of us in favor of universal coverage [a majority of Americans] agree that this is not the most logical solution to lack of coverage. It's inappropriate to entrust a universal health care system to private insurance companies -- which of necessity exist to make money -- not for any public purpose.<br /><br />Ultimately they will be cut out of the equation or forced to compete in a strictly regulated market -- as they have been in every other grown-up country.<br /><br />* Obama was never a (never mind "the") lawyer for ACORN. And nobody ever "forced" banks to make bad loans (to anyone). Sub-prime (including "liar") loans were made in order to collect origination fees -- for mortgages which were then packaged and sold to (other) investors. My guess is that this garbled untruth refers to the fact that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were established to make home loans more widely available. (Though not to make loans to un-creditworthy borrowers.)George Mattinglyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11844284835653397986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-16605002166959615612010-03-02T20:43:42.449-08:002010-03-02T20:43:42.449-08:00It's very hard to understand the u. healthcare...It's very hard to understand the u. healthcare phenomenon. The whole country is saying that they don't want it, but Obama is fixated on it.<br /><br />He was the lawyer for ACORN.<br /><br />He thinks that something can come out of nothing. It's the strangest phenomenon.<br /><br />ACORN was against red lining, and they basically forced banks to make bad loans, loans they knew they would never recoup.<br /><br />Obama is trying to make insurance companies pay out to people that they know are bad risks.<br /><br />It's the same darned thing.<br /><br />And this is supposed to save the economy, on top of it.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-43023373226194267662010-03-01T15:19:14.249-08:002010-03-01T15:19:14.249-08:00the burden of payment don't fall on the rich o...the burden of payment don't fall on the rich or the businesses<br /><br />IT falls on those who HAVE TO PAY<br /><br />those on a fixed incomes<br />those who believed in saving money (in banks) for a "rainy day<br /><br />those who live from pay-check to paycheck<br /><br />those with low-incomes but steady jobs..<br /><br />now that I am one of the extremely wealthy I don't see or feel any problems with what is going on in MY neighborhood.<br /><br />heck: Medicare just decided to lower payments to doctors by 21 % ! and suspend for 10 days ALL payments until our Congress of Morons vote on how much to cut...<br /><br />lump all of those "natural disasters" together (weather, earth quakes, famines, diseases, wars... heck<br /><br />things will "take care of themselves"<br /><br /><br />Start The Revolution without me! I was there once... no see where it s gotten us?Ed Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11285310130024785775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-75657760839678649302010-03-01T12:06:08.815-08:002010-03-01T12:06:08.815-08:00J's last paragraph made sense, and is why most...J's last paragraph made sense, and is why most fear the Democrats' plan.<br /><br />Onc eyou have an enormous bureaucracy, it's impossible to get rid of, and becomes a giant Cyclopsean parasite.Kirby Olsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952289700191142943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1660090614793277371.post-5934754362160575262010-02-28T14:57:08.232-08:002010-02-28T14:57:08.232-08:00Why are the Republicans so partisan about holding ...<i> Why are the Republicans so partisan about holding the line against universal coverage? Because they realize that as the middle class shrinks--as America loses more jobs, and as its economy declines in real terms compared to China, India, etc.--the burden of taxation will fall increasingly upon their constituencies (the rich, the business interests, and foreign debt holders).</i><br /><br />Yes. But why shouldn't the wealthy--especially ostentatiously wealthy, ala 500 grand+, corp. execs, etc--foot the bill, via taxes, or higher premiums on corps? It's amazing how juvenile financial barons sound when someone suggests they might have to pay more in taxes (that includes the GOP pundits ala Palin, Beck, even down to Kirby-O like rightwing populists and teabaggers)--US tax rates are still quite low, historically speaking (Reagan's first term, tax rate was like 50% on upper brackets). In most EU countries, they would pay more (unless ueber-rich, rock star like).<br /><br />Excuse the normativity, but the US should have EU, or UK like health care. That's not especially radical, but pragmatic, and humanist. The main obstacle is probably US insurance companies, and inept and obstructive politicians. Dems themselves stump for the insurance biz, for most part. <br /><br />Public H-c could be fairly easily improved: like an upgrade of the VA, and county facilities. Build a few more hospitals (not hundreds), issue cards to the po'. Most workers would still have their private care anyway, and could avoid the drama at the state/county facilities. <br /><br />Instead the Demopublicans want to implement some grand mega-bureaucracy (even if still capitalist for the most part)--I suspect many contractors and developers want somethin' somethin' at the h-c gravy train as well.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.com