The State of Arizona this week passed new laws designed to prevent illegals--mostly Mexicans and Central Americans present in this country without papers--from openly soliciting employment, in defiance of Federal and State laws.
As anyone who lives in any major Southwestern state knows, the growing trend toward unofficial "labor" solicitation on our street corners has grown into an epidemic. These scofflaws sneak across the border, melt into the immigrant subculture network of ghettos and support groups. Since they can't legally be employed by respectable businesses, they hire out as cheap day-laborers, to contractors in the building and allied trades, loitering around building-supply outfits, or near highway intersections. This has in turn spawned a whole new corrupt system of exploitation by unscrupulous trades-contractors, who willingly and aggressively leverage this cheap, illegal labor, charging customers "American" rates while paying their "employee" (scab) laborers dirt-cheap daily cash rates. Most of these "day laborers" have some experience, but few are qualified to do skilled work, and none of them has been certified.
Despite the hardships which these illegals suffer here, they still regard these as necessary inconveniences in the quest for higher income, and the chance to live in the U.S. In other words, unless they are vigorously prevented from pursuing the scab labor market, they are perfectly willing to risk embarrassment, even capture and temporary detention, as long as they know that the system of tolerance which allows this shadow employment market to exist continues to turn a blind eye to its effects.
Estimates are that, on average, illegal labor now accounts for something like 25% of all the jobs in America in agriculture, manufacturing, contracting (construction), and service industries. These are not jobs "Americans won't do" but jobs which illegals find the easiest to steal from their American counterparts.
Perhaps the most offensive part of the immigration situation, is the evident indignation of the Mexican government, and of the illegals living in America, towards attempts to address the problems they cause. "How dare you treat our people this way!" the Mexican government struts. "Legalize all foreign nationals immediately!" the illegals demand. But these people aren't Americans. They don't share in the privileges of American life and governance. They steal and plunder the American bounty, then complain when they're caught or scolded for doing so. "Human rights!" they scream. "We want justice!"
But true justice--American justice--has declared them illegal, and there are penalties for breaking immigration laws. The Federal government's failure to adequately control the immigration of Central (most Mexican) immigrants into this country has put an intolerable burden on many of the states in the Union. Finally, after decades of abuse of our residence and employment laws, and wave after wave of Mexicans have sneaked into our country, state governments have taken matters into their own hands. Who can blame them?
Immigration policy has traditionally prefered law-abiding, educated, reasonably secure, healthy applicants. We have quotas for individual countries, based on estimates of how much population can be comfortably absorbed into our society, without disturbing the rights and privileges of our own citizenry and its institutions. But this policy has been ignored by Mexico. It's perfectly happy to encourage hundreds of thousands of its poor and dispossessed, sick, uneducated, and criminal fringe to emigrate illegally into America. And why wouldn't it be? Are these really the kind of people we want to encourage to come here?
We're told that what America needs is a highly trained, highly educated population, able to compete in the world-wide high-tech market. But how can we provide education to illegals, especially those who can't even speak English? We're told that our medical system is falling apart, overburdened by the under-insured and uninsurable. But if that's true, how can we afford to entertain hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals who traipse into our emergency rooms demanding free treatment, and birthing children to gain a foothold on residency?
The immigrant lobby wants to eliminate all controls on the movement of people across our mutual border. They want immediate and unrestricted amnesty--immediate citizenship, immediate entitlement to all benefits of citizenship, and uncontrolled movement of goods and services back and forth across borders. In effect, they want our two countries to share in the burdens of support and responsibility which Mexico's hoards of poor and forsaken populace need.
But Mexico isn't America. It has its own government, and its people are its own responsibility. If it refuses to shoulder that responsibility, America has no natural obligation to assume it for them. Refugee populations represent one of the world's great real problems. But moving people from one place to another, without systems, without order, is a recipe for every kind of corruption, and suffering on a grand scale.
As long as America allows Mexico to fob off its refugee population to the North, we will have big problems, and Mexico will simply be encouraged to pursue its misguided, corrupt policies a little longer. Arizona's attempt to stop the street solicitation of scab employment will go a long way towards frustrating Mexicans from stealing jobs from American workers--particularly in the building trades. If these scabs find out the game's up, they may think twice about jumping the fence again, the next time they're deported. It's legislation I wouldn't mind seeing here in California.
All very nicely put!
you might speak with builders about this
maybe there's a drift northward that allows very capable hardworking far from lazy people to do work that most conmfy white americans loathe..my point being that the general rule here is they have to be able to work and work well...and these people do...things like roofing or butcherplants
what most employers know is that mexicans are pretty damn dependable and they work hard...they demand some respect and sometimes they get laughed at
there is no america
it's a fiction wrought by fools
many of the people are treading paths that predate white european greed - paths their ancestors walked
i'm all for more discomfort in america USA USA
too many white shiny smiles
not enough genuine humor
just have the USA govt grant back about 5 million acres between the missississississsissssippppi there i got it out and the coastal range
tot he bloods
and we can talk about sovereignty and glorious free statehood
we've hired loads of extra security to keep watch and protect the places we have created--- all of which look like noplace places
the sacred noplaces of american arrogance
by opening the boarder you lessen tension you lessen the value of drugs and lives and other contraband...which makes the recipients very uncomfortable and you create a context for cheap cleaning labour for nice clean american homes homes that wear big shiny smiles dental homes
the hispanic natural flow into the american southwest predates the luoissianna purchace
fences are for fascists
if we keep insisting on the fence then pleasure seekers to baja become more and more vulnerable to collective mexican rage...unfortunate murders and rapes and robberies
21st century cyberclamation spaghetti westerns
the wall on the border might be likened to a 12 step program for the addicted country building the wall ( did you know they even use mexicans to builde the wall)
my bet is the co-dependency is much bigger than any wall
that's where i'm puttin my money
i'm not sayin i know people
i'm just sayin i think that's the way people are
the collapse you so propheticaly speak about curtis will be terribly uncomfortable for the comfortable but those who have learned to scrap along at dirt level will probably survive
we could learn a thing or two from our neighbors
we're learning about some great guitars highest quality in the world guitars coming from mexico
i've grown to appreciate the devotion to santissimi muerte
it fascinates in a certain surreal way
white people are the problem
the statue of liberty is flipping off the world
The first thing that jumps out at me is your evident hatred of America. If you're American yourself, that certainly hints at deep levels of insecurity, self-hatred and resentment.
At any given moment, it's possible to condemn the worst aspects of one's nation, or the best aspects. You would seem to think that America needs to be "punished" for its sins, and one way to do this would be to welcome in several million refugees from Central America. This would overburden our environmental, social and service infrastructures, pulling down the standard of living for all Americans. Yet this is clearly what you want to happen. You suggest that this kind of "leveling" of expectation is a good thing. Again--bitterness and self-hatred.
The fact is that American builders are using illegals to rip off their clients; the contractors rip off customers and illegals at the same time--by breaking residence and employment laws and skirting the edge of hard crime. It's a vicious circle facilitated by contempt for the rule of law.
If there is no such thing as America maybe you could tell that to the families of war veterans. Actually, you lack any respect for the qualities of American justice and opportunity which are part of what attracts so many foreigners to our shores. If America's as bad as you think it is, then the best choice is simply to tear it down. That's what the Islamic terrorists believe.
So white people are the enemy. That sounds clearly racist to me. Maybe you could start a cult, kill off a few with some well-placed bombs.
Want to break up America? Let's give the whole nation back to the Indians. How about reparations?--we could give each person who is at least 1/8th Latino or Black or Native American an immediate monthly pension of $1000 for life. That would set the record straight. A little hard on the National Debt, but what the fuck.
We could legalize drugs in this country. No question that that would go a long ways towards quieting the illegal drug trade, but it wouldn't do much to solve the immigration problem.
There's no such thing as a natural hispanic flow. Mexican immigration is a contemporary phenomenon, fueled by governmental corruption, over-population, and poverty in Mexico. America didn't create this problem, and we have no compelling responsibility to address it. It's Mexico's problem. Either they fix it, or they don't.
Since you seem to have big problems with white people, maybe you could consider going to a country where they're the minority. And speaking of race, are Spaniards white? Are Mexicans "colored"? Personally, I'm not hung up on this racial business. I just want to preserve the standard of living we used to have in this country, before the Global Economy folks started messing with it.
I suggest you contact your local Latino support group and volunteer to "put up" a family of illegals waiting for amnesty. That would allow you to get close to the problem, and salve your deep sense of guilt. Also, you might be able to improve your diet--instead of all those burgers and fries, you could eat tortillas and peppers. Big improvement.
Sir Faville, I feel you're waxing a bit xenophobic here. jh raises a few good points
While I think we should patrol the border--that, or consider an open border-- the McCain-ish AZ-GOP has now smashed down its iron fist, pleasing the WASP-mormon hordes (and I wager the SCOTUS will have a say on this matter soon).
The street-corner laborers are not pretty and may ruin the LA commuters' day, yet CA contractors hire them. Agri-business hires them; food service hires them. They do the dirty work for under the table wages--and the contractors make a fortune by saving a bundle on labor costs.
who's to blame?? The contractors, the companies, agri-biz are. at least los migros are...whores, and the contractors who hire los migros, pimps. They should pay for the transport to the "centers" and all the logistics costs.
There's not enough sympathy and welfare benefits to care for and "save" all the poor, hungry and hopeless around the world. We can't do it, and we shouldn't be trying. (And we shouldn't be preemptively invading other countries, either.)
Reduce population by one-third, then we can discuss mutual assistance. In the meantime, you tend the little plot you call your own and teach by example.
Let's get a handle on our own unemployed and sick and poor, before we take up the burden of Mexico's and the rest of Central America's. Charity starts at home.
curtis i don't hate america
i simply refuse to recognize this country in terms that it's commonly chocked up to be
ardent selfrighteous nationalist idealism cannot help but utilize the strategies of fascism
i keep in touch with hispanic folks in my area
i help when i can
i see them as integral to american identity
we are our neighbors
i find it amusing that there is this teethclenching xenophobia in USA..it reminds me of rebellious adolescents who don't know their elbow from a hole in the ground
but they're going to stand by their convictions anyway
i could live on good mexican food
but that's a rarity in minnesota
this is still meat and potatoes land
there are peoples who convene at ancient community sites all over the southwest they preserve the narrative of their people and this transcends modern border patrol
they know the land
that's right i say relinquish a huge portion of land just give it up nobody owns it
screw the realestate people
and let it be land where people can traverse if they so need to or desire
i'm against western american pillaging...in the way stegner and abbey and most of the wise observers of the west were against it
arizona is a redneck mean spritited political place
there's a lot of folks in arizona who wake up in the morning look in the mirror and really believe they are important characters in a big western drama still being played out beyond hollywood affectation
spoiled people with suntans and golf carts
and while we're at it open the canadian border too
we do have to get out of the o so precious number 1 america syndrome
the grotesque hypocracies in american point to something
more than half of americans speak spanish
it's not overpopulation but the dictates of the greedy which infects the problem
i repeat it's a codependency that our side is very reluctant to come to terms with in any way than creating a zoo
america the zoo
with fences and cages everywhere
i simply think people could learn to live more freely
If the Mexican-American (legal immigrants) do not help to police the situation vis a vis the illegals but actively help them to integrate and receive American resources, then the police can't be blamed for not being able to distinguish one from the other.
If enormous Latino groups cry racism, when this is actually a case of invasion from another country, then the police should have the right to go through each dossier.
Doing this, will hopefully help legal immigrants figure out that it is not in their best interest to support the "right" of illegal immigrants to remain here.
This is a complex matter, but let me draw a further parallel that will please very few, and then yet another parallel that will please no one at all.
When terrorists dress up as legal Americans, and even infiltrate the military, as did Major Hasan in Texas, it makes all Islamic people suspect. Therefore, we should attempt to keep them out of sensitive positions, whether there is a cry of racism or not.
Few people will agree, and yet, it is the same principle.
Now here is yet another extrapolation that will please absolutely no one, and even infuriate everyone.
When Vietnamese children and women became combatants in the Vietnam War, they blurred the line between combatant and women and children to the extent that American soldiers, in their fury, destroyed everyone in the village of My Lai.
Was this legitimate?
No, but whose fault was it?
Most assume that it was the fault of the American soldiers. I disagree. The fault lies with those who deliberately blurred that line in the first place.
In a similar way, to go back to the original problem, it is in the best interests of legal Mexican and Hispanic immigrants to comply with American law, and to rat out any suspected illegals, unless they want to be confused with them.
That's a separate issue.
The border should be patrolled-- --though I have heard some interesting arguments for an open border between US/Mexico (and Canada perhaps). Were the border adequately patrolled there would be no need for the AZ style enforcement--
I'm opposed to the Minuteman style hysteria, however, and that's what fueled the AZ motion. AZ's sort of west texass (as is much of California actually). If McCaint or the Mittster had their way they'd probably just call in the marines and liquidate...(like, all non-caucasians...or is it all non-baptists and mormons).
I also agree somewhat with jh in so far that many paisas are hard-working people, with little opportunities in mexico, especially the battle-zones of the sonora and border areas. This was Mexican-spanish territory...and natives before that (and read a bit of history regarding some of the US's imperialism in the southwest, say about the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo...and well..you start understanding some of the concerns , and rage of La Raza....or natives for that matter....maybe not sympathizing, but understanding)
many companies and contractors depend on the cheap illegal labor. Many a developer has made millions by hiring illegals and saving on labor costs (as you admit), and indeed taking jobs from American citizens in some cases--the southside GOP has indeed joined the Demos in a sort of soft-on-illegals stance.
Certainly the most frustrating thing, for me, is to accept being perceived as a conservative meanie, when I generally think of myself as a flamin' liberal.
I think it indicative that many of those who express the greatest sympathy and tolerance for illegal immigration live very far away from it, or are insulated from its effects.
Historical justifications for ungoverned immigration are pretty thin pretexts. We are a world of nations, and historical claims are seldom a valid basis for claiming land or privileges from presently prevailing constituencies or sovereignties. There are exceptions, of course, but America's lower 48 borders have been well-established for over a century. Mexico, and Mexicans, have no valid claims over American territory anywhere in the Southwest. To try to make a case for reparations or "historical" claims is nonsense. Each nation is responsible for its citizens, for providing for their welfare, and establishing and maintaining order, and not impinging on the its neighbors. Mexico has decided--with respect to its common border with the United States--to ignore these responsibilities. It's an outlaw nation. There's nothing wrong with Mexicans that a little opportunity and prosperity wouldn't solve. But Americans aren't responsible for the citizens of Mexico, or Honduras, or Brazil, or Ecuador. We give foreign aid around the world, and provide disaster relief when needed or asked. But assistance freely given is not the same thing as illegal immigration. If Mexico wants economic cooperation with us, it needs to follow ground rules. Our standards of conduct and regulation are high, higher than Mexico's.
Americans shouldn't feel guilty or selfish for wanting to preserve what environmental and social benefits we still possess. These aren't for the taking by foreign nationals, no matter where they come from. Our public health care systems, our public educations systems belong to us, not to Mexico. No foreign national has any right to demand service and assistance and satisfaction here, or to knowingly and willfully break our laws, and then demand that they be granted privileges and benefits that few of our citizens can access.
Illegal immigration needs to stop. And we need to stop inventing excuses for not addressing it as the crisis it is. And those who are unfamiliar or naive about its realities need to stop pretending to be concerned, when they have--or mistakenly believe they have--no stake in the outcome.
If you or someone you know is unemployed, or has no health coverage, or whose public school is broke, and going to close, you have a stake in the health of this economy. It's true that 60 years ago, Mexican illegal immigration was just the pimple on the stray dog of the American agricultural economy, but that hasn't been true for at least four decades. The drag of illegal immigration on our society now is major. Given all the other insults our infrastructure has suffered--notably the exportation of middle class manufacturing jobs--it stands to reason that additional stresses on our economy are going to be felt profoundly.
--So Ossifer Faville you paperwork a pregnant mama, about to give birth say near Tuscon--summertime--, and find out she's "illegal": do you Ossifer, and rookie Olsonator ridin' shotgun, promptly arrest her, send to prison in 110 degree heat, or take her to hospital or doctor? I wager you'd give her the boot if you could. That's the case for many paisas.
--we should tax the Steve Jobs and Ellisons and Feinsteins and ho-wood production houses out the ass, and just give 'em welfare, improve the holding stations--drop water and necessaries out in the desert, LA streets, etc.
--there may not be a direct historical cause (or case), but it's relevant--certainly to hispanic people. The Treaty of G-H, and Gadsen Purchase were negotiated at the point of a gun, ie the US Army sort of promising not to invade Mex. again...(and oddly, completed right prior to the discovery of gold in CA).
--Finally, if the pimp-contractors didn't pay them for the under-the table work, or tempt them, they wouldn't come. Blame the pimp-- not the whore, who generally just needs work to survive.
Somehow, I don't have the impression that any of this matters much to you, in the long run.
I appreciate the feedback, but don't feel moved at this juncture, to reply again.
No, that's not true. I may not be jh, but object to the AZ measure for my own reasons. I've worked with poor hispanic people, in CA, and in the furnace of an AZ summer. I've seen old ladies die in the fields of Central Calif. I'm fairly cynical, and don't care for the hispanic labor gangs out in the valley and so forth, but the conservative solutions are not the answer (and to be honest, we have hired "illegals" at times for yardwork, labor, etc).
The immigration problems are about f-ed-up economics--both US and Mexican--more than anything, primarily in regard to development and ag-biz. The McCain-AZ-GOP solution is not a solution--merely a sort of strong-arm reaction. That said, the catholic church itself may share part of the blame (ie, opposition to birth control/family planning).
You don't seem to understand the issue. And I don't think your rather callous attitude is so different than the Olsonator's.
white people are the problem
the statue of liberty is flipping off the world
That's the poet's view, CF. Yours is, well, the WASP view for the most part. Let's say it comes down to WASP-mormon hordes (with backing of US Military, including their multicultural muscle) versus Mexico, central America.
I'm not sure the Muses would want you supporting the likes of Mitt Romney marching with the flag of King Brigham (you think I jest--the LDS-legions have great power in AZ, and the West as a whole, apart from urban areas ...shared between baptists and LDS....the counterforce consisting of hispanics/catholics). It's not entirely obvious the good guys won at the Alamo...
si se puede
Curtis, I find it difficult too to accept conservative ideas because they appear to be so mean on the surface. But they make sense in the long run, which makes them actually less mean than the liberals who can't make any clear decisions on anything for fear of being mean, or being perceived as mean, which means that the system crumbles.
Obama for example now just says this isn't the right solution, let's find something that works for everybody.
He is such a loser.
He will take years making no decisions, and meanwhile let more Arizonans get killed by illegals.
Liberals try to balance everything, and find a perfect solution. But there aren't any perfect solutions.
You have to protect Arizonans, and you have to do it today.
Which means seal the borders by any means necessary, penalize anyone who hires illegals, and get the paperwork done.
This means that the Arizonans who are there will stay, rather than flee, since the state will be safe for them.
Our government has to make life safe for its citizens.
Obama threatens everyone and everything with his mindless idealism.
Mexico is basically forcing us to care for their poor instead of coming up with some way to care for them themselves. We are, in essence, bailing out their socialist system.
At bottom, too, if you investigate, the Mexicans have a VERY TOUGH immigration policy toward Guatemalans, Hondurans, and others from their own points to the south.
What's happening is incredibly unfair. The US should present a bill of charges to the Mexican government for housing 20 million of their population on our shores.
We have to make their government pay if we want any consideration on this from their side. Otherwise, it's to their benefit to keep warehousing their poor on our soil.
1st time illegals in Mexico get 2 years incarceration, 2nd time it's ten years.
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